In this episode, we’re exploring what it means to find your voice with poet, storyteller and publisher Ronda Taylor as a writer and program director at Youth Empowerment services in Charleston, South Carolina, Ronda has leaned on her creative passions to uplift and connect with her community.
Career Area: Arts Education
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Thurayya UmBayemake
In this episode, we’re navigating finding your place in theatre education with Thurayya UmBayemake, a Coaching Teacher with the Spark! Program at the SC Governor’s School of the Arts and Humanities. Thurayya is based in Columbia, but she works around the state guiding a team of teaching artists working with elementary school children to learn reading and storytelling. While Thurayya has lived all over the United States, a series of opportunities brought her to South Carolina.
Transcript
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Philip Mullen
“It’s a very fortunate blessing to find something in life that you like enough that you do it before you’re paid for it.”
Philip Mullen is a painter and professor emeritus. Philip Mullen reflects on decades of artmaking and mentoring and why South Carolina and a bathtub shaped his creative life.
Interview
Transcript
Nora Smith 00:00
Alright, to start. What do you do for work, and where are you currently working from?
Philip Mullen 00:07
Well, I’m a painter of large acrylic paintings, and I have a studio in Columbia. My studio is designed for large paintings. It’s 1300 square feet made as a studio for that. Actually, when I first built the studio in 1989 and when, right after I built it, a national magazine was running this…It was called, The Artist Magazine, and I think it may have had the biggest circulation of any art magazine at the time, because it was, it was aimed at a really clever group, and that was amateur artists who think they’re pros, a very large audience. But it’s, you know, it’s a great audience. It’s a wonderful thing for people to go into. But they used mine as an example of how to set up big paintings.
And the two, the two items that kind of got them interested was, I needed a big sink. Big sinks are really expensive, but mobile home Bathtubs are really pretty cheap, and you can mount them up high, like a sink. Of course, the guys who installed it kept saying, what are you going to have a ladder to get into this thing? No, no, guys, it’s a sink. It’s a sink.
And then during the time I did, it was, I was represented for 35 years by David Finley galleries in New York. And those shows, you know, I had, like I said, 14 solo shows with them over the 35 years. And those shows often would have 40 to 45 pieces, half of which have six-foot dimensions, or half of which just had a four-foot dimension, and maybe a few larger ones included. And because the way I do my edges, I can’t set them down, but I’d have a lot of paintings collected up at any one given time. And I designed a very simple rack that I could hang 46-foot paintings on without the edges touching anything.
More of an answer than you probably needed. I warn you, I was once interviewed on the radio, and after 10 minutes, the interviewer said, Mr. Mullin, I was kind of hoping to ask a second question.
Nora Smith 02:45
Okay, well, this one kind of wraps in with the first one. How long have you been working there, and what is your official job title?
Philip Mullen 02:53
Well, my only official job title now is artist. And I guess I have a sort of official job title as distinguished professor emeritus from USC. I had a very good arrangement with USC. I taught there from 69 to 2000 and, but I took nine, I did not teach in summers, and I took nine years of leave during that time. So, I taught 22 because those New York shows took an enormous amount of time to put together. You really put it this way, my art gallery friends were very suspicious of my teaching, because they said, if you teach, you can’t paint enough. And my teaching friends were very suspicious of my art gallery’s success because they said, “You can’t sell without selling out.” And each of those things probably has some basis in possibility, but there’s certainly things you have to watch out for.
Nora Smith 04:06
Yeah, well, you just do, you do it all.
Philip Mullen 04:10
Well, I was a bit of an obsessive worker for decades and decades. It didn’t make me socially very interested, but I got a lot of artwork done. And the teaching, you know, the teaching like that, was wonderful, because I didn’t end up doing it quite, it wasn’t like I was doing it all the time. You know that one period where I literally was taking half, where I had 12 years and only taught during fall semesters, yeah, and so it made my teaching much more exciting for me, and it was like a chance to talk to bright young people about the only thing I knew anything about. And it, you know, while I’m sure there were other teachers that were more talented, as teachers, than I was.
The one thing I could bring to it was especially like the graduate students might see me working on a particular painting and then end up seeing that painting reproduced in Arts Magazine, for example. And so, it brought the sense, I think, to students, that it could be something bigger. That was especially true before I built the studio in 89 because I had a studio at the university furnished and, you know, graduate students and undergraduates were in and out of that while I was down there.
Nora Smith 05:40
That’s so cool.
Philip Mullen 05:42
Well, I tell you, it’s, you know, its a very fortunate blessing to find something in life that you like enough that you do it before you’re paid for it. You do it if you’re paid for you do it if you’re not paid for it, you know people, they said, “Oh, man, you’re so disciplined, you’re always in the studio.” I wasn’t disciplined. I was self-indulgent. I was doing what I, you know, that’s what I wanted to be doing.
Nora Smith 06:11
Yeah. Super cool! Okay, so this is more of a question specific to your area, okay, in the creative field in South Carolina. What is one thing you love about working in the creative field in South Carolina?
Philip Mullen 06:29
Well, one thing that was that I found really great at first, when I was young and needed to get grants for something, was that while there may not be as many grants here as there are in a bigger city, when you stop to think about how many artists are per grants available, it’s pretty rich here. When I got with my gallery in New York, I’d had the good fortune of being included in a show called the Whitney Biennial. It’s a show at the Whitney Museum in New York, and in 1975, and I knew I wanted to have a gallery in New York, so I wanted to take advantage of that.
I took a year off of teaching, moved to New York, and did that, I did have sabbatical money that time. Most of my leaves were unpaid, but I went on sabbatical money. I spent all of my own money, but got what was at the time, a quite large grant from the Arts Commission to go there. Rented three fifths of Andy Warhol’s old factory, lived and worked in that. Of course, lived illegally.
Nora Smith 07:42
The commitment, a lot of commitment there.
Philip Mullen 07:45
Yeah, I learned a couple of very important skills there because of living illegally, you know, because if you’re in a place that is selling commercial in New York, they only have to give you heat six days a week. Oh yes. And so first we crank the heat up, you know, very high on Saturday night and hope to survive till Monday. Later I learned two of the skills I developed was how to hotwire a locked elevator and how to start up a furnace in a big building. And none of the other tenants complained, and the building manager didn’t like the building owner. So, I’m sure he figured it out when he came in every Monday and the furnace was on.
Nora Smith 08:29
That’s so funny.
Philip Mullen 08:32
The art world, the painting world, has changed a good bit since then. Now I loved, absolutely loved the notion of earning money, selling paintings in New York and spending money in South Carolina. You can see where that might function. Of course, one of the things I did learn is, if you’re going to do that, you’re not just making paintings and somebody else is doing stuff for you. You are pretty constantly working on business things as well.
Nora Smith 09:06
For sure, for sure. Yeah. How would you describe your local professional community around you?
Philip Mullen 9:16
It’s a lot like most places. There’s a few people who are, who are, you know, real top-notch pros to deal with. There’s a lot of people who it’s a hobby for, and it’s a wonderful hobby to take up, you know, I mean, I was reading one time about in different professions, what age you peak at. Or you don’t want to be a female gymnast, you know, you peak very early in life, but being an artist was actually the thing that you the people peaked at the latest in life. Yeah, you know, it’s sort of something that you can do for a long time.
So, I would describe most of the community as a sort of normal hobbyist community. But one of the funny things, you know, in certain areas, there’s sort of funny things that occur in terms of how people develop, like, if you want to learn yoga real well, pretty quickly, you end up going into yoga teacher training. I mean, even if you don’t want to teach, you go through yoga teacher training, and all of a sudden, then you’re a trained yoga teacher.
Nora Smith 10:33
Yeah.
Philip Mullen 10:34
So, you’re out teaching yoga. If people go and take a painting, go into it. I mean, very quickly, way too quickly. Generally, they feel like they need to get out and start selling their stuff. And I’m a little suspect that was certainly not me. Now, when I did it, I got, I was obviously really serious about it, because, you know, I’ll tell you that year in New York, while it was professionally very important, it was very lonely, I’m going around to galleries, trying to get into galleries. They’re being approached every day by artists. Many of them are not very polite to you. You know, it pretty gruesome thing. You know, to be an artist, you’ve got to have it in one seat. You’ve got to have a big ego. I mean, the idea that, the idea that you can make something and somebody else should actually take time looking at it, is pretty amazing.
That they should actually pay you for it is incredible. But myself, like most artists I know, have very fragile egos. You know, it’s so getting out there and trying to do that part about promoting it is something.
Now, I did, you know, I lived in New York. I did not want to raise a family in New York, like South Carolina, that way. You know, in 69 when I was looking for a university teaching position, I very specifically looked at the south, it’s one of those, you know, I didn’t know where I was raised. I went to nine schools before I was out of high school. You know, when I went to college, I thought I’d settle down, and most of us in states in the north, but for three years, it was in Texas, and that was the only place that the weather made any sense to me. So, I focused on South Carolina, and the position I got here worked out so so well for me. Fortunately, I never really had any reason to not want to just stay.
Nora Smith 12:55
That’s great. That’s great. How would you define success personally?
Philip Mullen 13:06
Well, I think one of the wonderful things about being a serious artist in an art is that we define other artists’ success in terms of the work they make. We don’t define it in terms of how well they do business. Mm, hmm. We all know people who have who are just out of the out of this world, sensational painters, lot of depth to their work, and all who never get any recognition. We also know people who are just hacks who make tons of money because they’re great business people.
Nora Smith 13:45
Yeah.
Philip Mullen 13:47
In a way to me, success has to do with putting together a life in which I could do, spend a lot of time, making paintings. Now, there were parts to that that were, you end up doing some other things in order to make that happen. You know, in my case, one of the things I did was I did an academic PhD, which was, boy, not my forte. I was, I mean, that was three years of struggling, but it gave me a wonderful way to get into a really good academic position, which gave me a basis of support and encouraged me to do a lot of painting early on. In those early years, I used to send a lot of shows around the state, including one to Coastal Carolina, probably back in the early 70s.
Nora Smith 14:50
How lovely!
Philip Mullen 14:51
It might have been later than that, because actually, one of my students ended up as a theater professor at Coastal.
Nora Smith 14:58
Really! Are they still here?
Philip Mullen 15:00
I would Imagine not, and they must be retired by now. I cannot remember her name.
Nora Smith 15:09
That’s alright.
Philip Mullen 15:10
She did have it. Have you ever seen the movie sleeping with the enemy?
Nora Smith 15:13
No, but I’ve heard of it.
Philip Mullen 15:16
Yeah. Well, it’s almost just a two-person thing, but she’s a big part in that.
Nora Smith 15:21
Oh, okay, that’s super cool.
Philip Mullen 15:23
If you ever watch it, she’s a nurse and she was a professor at Coastal.
Nora Smith 15:27
Oh, that’s super cool. Okay, great to know. I find out so much doing these interviews with people, yeah, so kind of going back to the beginning of starting your career. What was your biggest fear when you decided that you wanted to do something in the arts?
Philip Mullen 15:41
My biggest fear, well, I certainly had no encouragement. I’m not going to say the words online that my dad said to me when he realized I was actually going into being an artist. It’s not something you want to publish. So that was, that was a big challenge.
Nora Smith 15:58
Yeah, I’m sure, I’m sure.
Philip Mullen 16:00
Fortunately, I ran across people who gave me enough encouragement. One thing that helped me a lot was that I graduated in the lower half of my high school class. I did not want to go to college. I didn’t know what else to do. I got to, you know, I went to the University of Minnesota. I had been such a poor student, I realized I’d never get through college, so I figured, and I was not an art major, so I figured I’d go hang out with my buddy Mike, who was an art major. And I got over there, and I realized that the beginning art classes were not much fun, and the art majors had to take them, but I didn’t. So, I sort of had to talk this professor into letting me start in that upper level, middle level, I should say mid-level painting course. He did not want to do it, and I was kind of persistent. And he finally said, okay, okay, I’ll let you in and under his breath, he said, “In the other guy’s section.
And it turned out the other guy was Ed Corbett, who back when abstract expressionism was getting going, and the Museum of Modern Art did a show of 16 of the young abstract expressionists. Ed Corbett was in it. So, my first teacher was an absolute top run guy, and I thought, and I had had really very little success in life. So, failure was like, was getting pretty, if not comfortable with it, at least used to it. I just think this is wonderful. These guys get to spend tons of time just making paintings. What could be better? You know? Yeah, I still feel that way. That didn’t go away. And that’s amazing. That’s amazing to have it last that long. You know, I mean, and I was, what was 18 years old, then I’m 82 years old. Now, it’s great to have something stick with you that long.
Nora Smith 17:55
Yeah, that’s amazing.
Philip Mullen 17:57
It is, it’s, I don’t feel like taking credit for that so much is just being very thankful that I stumbled upon the stuff that made me want to do that, you know.
Nora Smith 18:10
Right. So, what would you say is the best and worst advice you’ve ever received about going into the field or being in the field, just some things you’ve heard?
Philip Mullen 18:22
I can’t think of anything, anything that I really think was best or worst advice. I think a person needs to be realistic about what they’re willing to put into it and what they want out of it.
Nora Smith 18:35
Yeah.
Philip Mullen 18:36
I had some wonderful art students over the years, some that I’ve you know remained long term friends with. I don’t know you might, you might even see above my head one of my ex-students works if…
Nora Smith 18:46
Oh, no, I can’t.
Philip Mullen 18:49
I pride myself in the fact that my student’s work does not look like mine. It, you know, there’s something important to all that.
These two guys are guys that are like me. They’re driven to make this stuff. They can’t help themselves. They’re quite different in terms of how they handle their business around it. Now, that’s one way you can go into it. Now, there’s a lot of other art students who really got a lot out of it, but I’d see him afterwards, and it’s, I always hated this one as subjective. “Well, I hate to tell you, I’m really not painting anymore. I’ve gone into I’m doing something else.” Well, the point wasn’t that everybody becomes a painter. It’s, you know, you took a sociology class, you took a history class, you took a math class. You can become a mathematician. You know.
It’s a lot of that’s about rounding it all out for yourself. Actually, in a way, when I get done with it, a class that I invented that I taught, not for the art department, but for the Honors College, is probably the class that I am most proud of having come up with when I was teaching at the university. It was called the artist experience, and only 15 people could be in it, but you’ll see why as I tell you. It was, it’s basically an art history class, I don’t know, an art appreciation class. However, you never saw a slide in it. If we learned about ceramics, we went to a ceramic studio. Graduate students there taught each person how to how to make, how to throw a pot. Two weeks later, we go back and do a Raku firing. Say, learn it from the inside out.
We visited artists studios and went to art shows. Now, what the purpose of this course was, is not to develop artists, but the purpose was to develop people’s appreciation for the Arts. I think art departments should be doing way, way, way more of that. It’s not so great for the egos of the professors who want to teach graduate students and the people who are really going into it, you know, sure, and I value, you know, these guys work, obviously, who were former students, and I value the kind of careers they put together, but I think as a general service.
And then what we would do is we would end the course with a three-day trip to New York. And that was when I had, when I had a lot of good New York connections. My former Los Angeles dealer had moved to New York, and she would lead the trip some. She would lead a day of the trip. Sometimes my own gallery would always do a wonderful thing. Oh, we go to, went up to Peter Finley gallery and his son, Josh, who worked there. And he was young, and the students kind of related to him, you know. And he, I remember, one year he’s passing a sculpture around. It’s about two and a half feet high, heavy pieces going around, gets a halfway around the circle, and he announces that it’s a Dega, with a kid holding it. I mean, he’s probably still clenched in this position, you know? And Josh says,”No, no, no, no. We’re not a museum. We’re trying to sell this piece.” People touch it. I mean that opportunity to, like, hold something like that.
I remember going to the Museum of Modern Art, and one of the girls in the class who probably hadn’t gotten too far out of South Carolina Previously, she calls me over to Van Gogh’s Starry Night was up, which calls me, and she says, Dr. Mullen, is this the real Starry Night? Yes, this is a real Starry Night, you know. And my gallery would always take them in the back room and pull out all the paintings for them and stuff. So it was, that’s why I called it the artist experience? We didn’t do it by teaching about art. We did it by experiencing. I didn’t have to worry. I didn’t have to worry about grading. I mean, this is honors college class. They’re all “A” students all the time anyhow. And so, what I did, I did the grades were simply based on attendance and a certain amount of projects they did, they would have to do. I mean, I’d have them do. I don’t know, are you a visual artist at all?
Nora Smith 23:53
No.
Philip Mullen 23:55
Okay, well, I had them do an exercise called negative shape drawing.
Nora Smith 23:58
I think I know what you’re talking about.
Philip Mullen 24:00
Okay, it’s sort of a, it’s a beginning, it’s a beginning drawing thing. But they would not, and we, you know, we’d spend not the time that an art major would spend on it but would spend a period on that. But they would never grade it on the quality of the work because that’s not the point. The point was to get to the head of it. And, I mean, that is where I would really like to see training in, not just in visual arts, but in the arts in general. Because being an artist does what we imagine, you just make this art and people buy it. That’s like, it’s like being an athlete who plays for; it’s a pretty small percentage of folks that that works out for. And the commitment is just, it’s more than most people really want to make to it and more than we. It makes sense for most people to make,
Nora Smith 25:03
Yeah.
Philip Mullen 25:03
And interestingly enough, of any classes I ever took taught, I still, I mean, here I am, 25 years away from having retired to university, and within the last year, I’ve still gotten some correspondence from some of the people who took that course. I mean, it was, you know, it was something that, it’s something that offers a kind of art, art can enrich, enrich everybody’s life.
Nora Smith 25:34
I agree. I would take that class. I would take that class.
Philip Mullen 25:38
Oh, whenever they opened it up. It started with seniors, you know, I mean it, it was filled the first day it was opened up.
Nora Smith 25:47
That sounds awesome, yeah.
Philip Mullen 25:51
And it was a very simple idea of art appreciation. But whoever got interested in art by looking at slides, I don’t know, you know, whoever got interested in music by memorizing composers?
Nora Smith 26:06
That’s such a great idea for a class. And I can imagine how amazing that was, teaching that, and the students experiencing that, such a great take on it, because now it seems so distant when you’re looking at slides of how to do things, instead of experiencing it like it completely distances it from you. And it’s, it feels impossible, almost in a way. Yes, yeah, that’s so cool. I love that.
Philip Mullen 26:34
What is the area that you’re studying in?
Nora Smith 26:37
I’m in English, in English. So, everything you’re saying, I’m like, it’s going to be my writing, because I would like to be a writer, and so I totally understand the artist. The whole it’s, yeah.
Philip Mullen 26:52
Every Wednesday, including today, almost every Wednesday, I have lunch with a writing friend of mine. And one of the things that I like about talking with him is it’s so nice to talk across disciplines, because you tend to talk about the bigger picture, as opposed if you talk to people in your own discipline, it can kind of get into, you know, how do you compose this sentence? How do you make this color transition and things like that? And we find that there are so many things about how we work that crossover.
Nora Smith 27:44
Yes, exactly. That’s so cool. Yeah, everything you were saying, I’m like, yeah, makes complete sense, even to me. So, yeah. So, I’ll keep you updated. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. If you have any questions, just send me an email, send me a text, but I will keep you updated.
Philip Mullen 28:06
Good. Well, it’s nice to talk to you, Nora.
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Desiree Williams
“I define success by being able to wake up and actually see my work impacting the lives of others.”
Desiree Williams is a licensed esthetician and educator. Desiree is turning creative passion into community impact, one lash, lesson, and life at a time.
Interview
Transcript
Emma Plutnicki 00:03
Okay, so to start, what do you do for work and where are you currently working from?
Desiree Williams 00:08
Well, my name is Desiree Williams. I am a licensed esthetician and a licensed esthetics instructor. I do have a suite that I work from, and I perform master extension applications as well as teaching it.
Emma Plutnicki 00:22
Amazing. And how long have you been doing that?
Desiree Williams 00:25
It’s been going on for six years.
Emma Plutnicki 00:30
Okay, a good amount of time. So, what is a typical day? Look like for you?
Desiree Williams 00:36
A typical day for me kind of starts like today. Wake up, do all my good, do all the things I need to do, and then run and go see clients. So, I like to get my clients out of the way at the beginning of the day, so in the evening I can do all of my marketing, all of my mentee calls. I teach a lot on Tiktok. So, I do free lash artist classes on Tiktok every day at 9pm so that’s basically what my day looks like. I start immediately getting into it after I do my gratitude and drink my tea and do everything that I need to do.
Emma Plutnicki 01:14
Yeah, amazing. And so how did you gain the skills to be successful in your career? I would
Desiree Williams 01:20
Say networking as well as reading. One thing that I learned is that if you want information out there it is always in a book, it’s somewhere in a book. I don’t even like Google anymore. I love to find a good book that talks about whatever topic I want to learn. So, I also watch a lot of like Alex hermosi, Grant Cardone, those guys to help me scale and do things like that. So, I feel like just networking and being a student forever has assisted me in getting where I am today.
Emma Plutnicki 01:50
Yeah, for sure. And did you have any fears when you were going into this career?
Desiree Williams 01:54
Oh, yes, plenty. I’m the first business owner in my family. So, it was a learning curve. I don’t even know where to start with my fears. I always was like, oh, well, how am I going to do this to get the inventory or the main thing was capital. So, a lot of times when you don’t have previous experience in business, it’s hard to get capital, especially if you’re not educated on things like the SBA and stuff like that. So, getting started finding a space to work was, you know, kind of hard as well. I started from my home and grew my business and was able to leave my home. So, there were a lot of fears, but thankfully, with faith, I overcame all of that.
Emma Plutnicki 02:35
Yeah, and did you have anybody along the way giving you any advice, any mentors or family members? Do you remember any of the best or worst pieces of advice that you were given?
Desiree Williams 02:44
I’m not gonna lie, like a couple weeks ago, my husband gave me the best pep talk ever, because I was like, I’m just gonna go get me a job. I’m not gonna have to worry about anything. I don’t have to follow up behind people. Just go get a job. So, I would definitely say my husband, he very, very much inspires me, even though, you know, it’s like, oh, it’s your husband. He should do that. No, some days he’s not going with my shenanigans, and other days he is. So, he was a big integral part of growing the business and doing things or learning how to do things the right way. So, some of the best advice I’ve gotten from him was, just do it. Stop overthinking it, just do it. And some of the worst advice I’ve ever gotten was not from him, but just from in general, like listening to social media. Like on social media, people tell you do ABC, you do it, and you don’t get the results that they promised. So, I learned not to use social media as a guy. But as far as the inspiration goes.
Emma Plutnicki 03:42
Yeah, that’s a good point. And have you been able to maintain a healthy work life balance with your work? Is it hard to kind of separate your personal life from your professional life
Desiree Williams 03:54
In the past? Yes, I was at the point where my business was my personality. So, like every time someone sings seeing me, they’ll be like, oh, its flash girl dance, you know? So, over the years, I was actually diagnosed with lupus at the height of my career. So that goes to show that when you first start in your business, create systems that are going to help your business continue to do what it needs to do, even if you’re not behind the chair or you can’t work. So now, after that diagnosis, I have a healthy work life balance. But before I didn’t, I woke up immediately checking emails, immediately doing this, but putting implement in business hours has been a great help to me, and now I feel like once I follow my business hours, the balance is it’s not even balanced. It’s harmony for me, yeah,
Emma Plutnicki 04:40
Perfect. And with a career like this, I’m sure it can be hard to kind of define what success looks like. So, what does success look like for you? Is it a positive review? Is it financial based? How do you define success in your professional career?
Desiree Williams 04:58
Oh, that’s a good one. I. I define success by being able to wake up and actually see my work impacting the lives of others. A lot of times, like in the career that I’m doing as an esthetician, a lot of people go to school, and they get done with school, and they never take their boards, or they learn lash extensions, and they never actually start the business or take clients. So, with me being able to teach over 1500 students, I’ve learned that my success is in helping people change their lives in a real, true way, where you know they’re not worried about what’s happening next, they actually have a plan, a strategy, to get things done. So, I define my success by how many lives I can positively impact, which is, which has been a lot. It’s kind of overwhelming once you think about it, but just being myself and letting them know, like, hey, if I can do it, you can do it too. My success comes from that. Yeah,
Emma Plutnicki 05:53
I love that. And has there been one specific moment that you can remember throughout your career that kind of stands out as having a significant impact on you, whether that’s your greatest success or just something that was kind of the pinnacle of your creativity.
Desiree Williams 06:08
I would say, honestly, my loop is diagnosis. Then the reason I say that is because I had to quickly pivot into not being behind the chair as much to oh my goodness, my hands are numb today. I can’t work today. What? What else can I do to help impact others? That moment where it’s like, I don’t I realize that I don’t physically have to be touching people to impact them. That was very pivotal for me, because social media is huge. You can. You could be in China right now. We’ll be talking like you get what I’m saying. So, um, just understanding that, boom, this is, I don’t know, it’s a lot, it’s a lot, it’s it’s a lot. And I would say, just, excuse me, I’m so sorry. No, you’re so good. Questions over here, like, I can think of multiple moments that’s great talking. I was thinking of another moment like, I was just like, whoa. You don’t realize how much you’re pouring into something till you step back and look at the bigger picture. So just the bigger picture, that’s really it?
Emma Plutnicki 07:17
Yeah, no, for sure, and working in South Carolina has that had any specific impact on you the state as a whole? Have you worked in other places, and does South Carolina specifically have any impact on your work?
Desiree Williams 07:30
Oh, very much. So I’m completing a course with Columbia’s business office. It’s called The Next Level micro entrepreneur, and I’ve never seen something like that in any other state, like just researching like, oh, I want to leave South Carolina. Where am I going to move to? What type of business support would I have? One thing that I will say about South Carolina in whole, is that our bit the business realm of it, those who are in those higher seats, they do want to see smaller micro businesses succeed. And today is, well, tomorrow will be week nine of the course. And I always tell anybody, if you want to run a business, definitely take this course, because it tells you, step by step on how to run your business and what to do, how to find loans with the SBA. This all the resources you think we didn’t have here in South Carolina that we do have, the class is only like $50 so I was just like, whoa, this information. It needs to be more. So South Carolina has definitely impacted my business like that, because it shows me that I have the resources here to do better than do the things that I want to do to impact the community. I don’t really I only work in Columbia, but I do have a lot of people that travel from Charleston. I had a young lady travel from North South Carolina, and I have no idea. I was like, I have no idea where that’s at. But just being born and raised here, it was, it’s great to have run a business here and see how things are changing. And it’s a really great straight state, especially if you want to run a business. So, yeah, I love my city.
Emma Plutnicki 09:02
Yeah, no, amazing. And how is the local working professional community? Is there a lot of support? Is, are there any, like, weekly meetings you go to? Or what kind of support do you receive within South Carolina,
Desiree Williams 09:16
It’s so many to name. They have different things, like, I’ll go on like Facebook and see what they have for meetups, like networking mixers and things like that. I don’t do anything weekly as far as networking. The last 10 weeks, I have been doing that class with the Columbia Business Office, and then just the esthetics community here is very loving, very huge. You know, everyone wants to see each other win, so I love that aspect of running my business here as well.
Emma Plutnicki 09:48
Yeah, amazing. And just as we wrap up, is there anything else that you’d like to add about your job, your career, any advice or anything like that? I’ll
Desiree Williams 09:59
Give some advice. If you are creative, because I’m definitely a creative I love with last extension, application, and just being an esthetician, doing application and things like that, you have to have that type of creativity so each person can have like, their signature look. So if you are creative, I just recommend to stick to it. Don’t try to see, do what other people are doing, do what works for you and your business will flourish.
Emma Plutnicki 10:25
Yeah, I love that. Well. Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us. I know everything that you said will definitely help anybody looking to pursue a similar career. So really appreciate it.
Desiree Williams 10:35
Yes, ma’am.
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Akai Shelise Jones
“Success is building meaningful relationships with our youth… making sure that the youth get positive exposure and not just be limited to what their sentence is.”
Akai Shelise Jones is the Visual Digital Media Director for the South Carolina Department of Juvenile Justice, where she blends creativity with purpose to tell powerful stories of change.
Interview
Transcript
Emma Plutnicki 00:02
So to start, what do you do for work and where are you currently working from?
Akai Shelise Jones 00:06
All right. So, hi guys. My name is Akai Jones. I currently work for the Department of Juvenile Justice, and what I do here is, the state title is Public Information Manager. So, I urge anyone, if they were going to look, it’s in the communications umbrella, but my in-house title is Visual Digital Media Director. So, it runs the gamut from anything like, if we have an incident here, I may have to communicate that internally. If it’s really bad, we may have to communicate that externally, and that would happen by way of media notification, some type of writing. Sometimes it’s drafting a letter or a memo to state the facts, so the funner sides of it, or the more love and light sides of it, I get to carry a camera and I go out and sometimes I just try to capture things that are around retention efforts for current employees. Sometimes it’s trying to gain the interest of potential employees. So, I may post some employee morale things. I run the social media page so you can check out the South Carolina Department of Juvenile Justice Facebook page. Sometimes it’s website updates. So, it really is a lot under the communications umbrella.
Emma Plutnicki 01:38
Yeah, and how long have you been working there for?
Akai Shelise Jones 01:41
So, this August will make three years.
Emma Plutnicki 01:44
Okay.
Akai Shelise Jones 01:45
Yeah, it’s coming up fast. But prior to that, I was a foster care social worker, so this has always been my population of people. We have youth here depending on the age, but most of the youth are anywhere between, and this is facility wide, between 13 and 18.
Emma Plutnicki 02:06
Okay, makes sense. And so what does the typical day to day look like for you? What are your responsibilities and what do you get into on a daily basis?
Akai Shelise Jones 02:13
So it depends. So, I try to be very organized, because I’m the only one that does this job for the entire state of South Carolina. So depending on, I usually try to keep like a content calendar. And like, for instance, this month is Social Worker Month Appreciation Month. So instead of just doing a flyer, I was like, let’s do something a little different this year, as long as everyone is on board. So, we had, like the leadership, our deputy directors, submit a few names, and I literally went out and grabbed a few interviews for a few social workers. So now that would mean capturing it, editing, putting some graphic design around some of the more poignant parts of the interview. So that’s just like one small piece. Some like day, the day after tomorrow, we have a community graduation. So that’s anybody that’s in a community role. So, you could be Intensive Supervision, you know, a Probation Officer. You could be an administrative person in the community, because we have over 43—it’s either 43 or 46, excuse me, counties, and those people do varied work. So, I may go out, I’ll take the graduation so that everybody has that personal moment. I’ll just do still photographs, but then I’ll come back to Facebook and post, we had another graduation. We had X amount of people. So, the duties do change. The other hot topic right now is we’re migrating from an old, kind of antiquated website to a new one. So I had to, like, kind of go through my external drive and find some cool pictures and upload that. Then there was a lot of text. I had to go back, and I had to vet information with leadership and say, “Is this still valid? Do we still need this? Is this any good?” So, it—that’s been laborious in that way, because it’s just like, I gotta make sure that everything is current and, you know, still even relevant. Yeah, so it really depends day to day.
Emma Plutnicki 04:30
Yeah, and with so many tasks on a daily basis, how do you personally define success in your role? Is it accomplishing all your tasks? Is it financial based? Is it, you know, ideological? How do you define success in your career?
Akai Shelise Jones 04:45
For me, I think it’s getting the right stories out, and what I mean by the right stories. A lot of employees here have been here for 17, 20 years. And for me, I think there’s some intrinsic value to getting those stories out where people don’t, you know, they don’t even know what the role is. I mean, some roles are so unique, like, I have a colleague of mine. He’s a Hearings Officer. Well, he’s the only one that does that role over the entire state. So, getting his story out and like, how the worlds collide with how we help our youth. To me, that’s the most important is just making sure that these kids are exposed as well. Like, because I have the clinical background with social work, it allows me to open up that conversation when I just have the camera out. So, they’re like, “Ms. Akai, you know you’re gonna, can you take my picture?” or “Do you do, you know, you do videos, you do music videos?” You know? And it allows me to put the camera in their hand, and then I have a conversation, and I might say, what are you in here for? And somebody may say, “Well, I did armed robbery.” I mean, some of these charges are heavy. And I’m like, “How much do you think the camera is?” And you know, they usually don’t guess. And I’m like, “Just the body of the camera, without a lens, is $3,600” and they’re like, “What?” And then I start to tell them. I said, “Well, if you were to book me as a client for two hours, what could you charge me to come out and shoot your event?” So, I think for me, defining success is have—making building meaningful relationships with our youth, giving them the opportunity to understand what I do and how it can translate to their life, and getting their stories out. So like, I guess the long answer is, you know, making sure that the youth get positive exposure and not just be limited to what their sentence is.
Emma Plutnicki 06:48
Yeah, no, it makes sense. And did you have any fears when you were coming into this career?
Akai Shelise Jones 06:53
I won’t really say fears, but like, there was some apprehension, because I’m what we call, we have some jargon, but we call it “behind the fence.” So like, for you, I wanted to take your call, but if there’s an incident and I’m on the other side of the fence where I’m just locked out, you know, so I think, like, more family and like friends were like, “Don’t do it,” you know, they have these stories and in their mind it made up that this is jail, this is corrections. But for me, it was a dream come true, because, like, I’ve always loved media, but, and I’ve always liked working with children, and really on the prevention side and the intervention side, but here, just because they’ve made a mistake doesn’t mean that it’s over. So, this was a dream job to be able to have both parts for me. So, I really didn’t listen to anyone, but I would say apprehension, like, would I be safe? You know, would I be able to tell the stories in the way that I want, have the autonomy to work? But I don’t know. I’m from the Bronx too, so I don’t, I don’t know about being scared.
Emma Plutnicki 08:04
Yeah, no, it makes sense. You mentioned your family members talking about it. Have you received any advice from family or friends or mentors or other colleagues along the way in your career, either positive or negative? And what kind of things do people say, what’s like, the worst and the best thing that people have given you advice about?
Akai Shelise Jones 08:27
The best advice is keep creating like, no matter what. I probably would say the worst advice is people saying, “Oh, they don’t want to see that,” you know, or “Oh, don’t, don’t do the pictures. Just do a newsletter, a stoic newsletter with no pictures or no don’t attach video to it.” I think that’s probably the worst advice, because in this ever changing world where we’re literally being, our attention spans are like really being governed by social media and things like that, like we have an opportunity to leverage that in the communications field and, like, do things in a new and fresh way. And so, I think that’s probably been the worst advise. Like, don’t do it, just somebody trying to put a limit on the seat. You know, when I look at it, like it’s a glass ceiling, I’m like, I can keep going. So, I don’t know. I’m just, I motivate myself, I try new things, and I think I really have leadership. You know, I have a nice relationship with the director here, Eden Hendrick, and the Chief of Staff, Christine Wallace, and they give me the autonomy to work, and that is probably the biggest blessing, so I can try new things. If it doesn’t work. They you know, I don’t know if there’s anything they’ve ever been displeased with, but they may tell me, I have an area of opportunity, and I work on them go from there.
Emma Plutnicki 09:48
No, that’s great to have, great to have. And throughout your career, has there been one moment that stood out as an especially significant moment in your career? Whether that’s a project you worked on, maybe an individual who impacted you, anything like that?
Akai Shelise Jones 10:05
I think one of the things that I have, I have two, but I’ll give you one. When I see youth, if they’ve been incarcerated and they’re out, they’re released into the community, and they’re able to actually come back and say, “Ms. Akai, I’m working. I’m here, I’m, you know, I’m helping my family.” So I started a segment called, where are they now? And I think the most memorable time was I had a young man and he said, “Ms. Akai, I want to play for South Carolina State.” And I was like, “What?” And he, big guy, and when you go, go scroll our Facebook page and look, look for in the video section. But so the team, we have a Career Readiness Team here that worked with him to help him with admissions and getting into the school and that kind of thing. Well, for me, what was so gratifying was, he was like, “Well, let’s just ride up there and you can see, you know, be a part of the process.” So it was like, I was like an extended family member, and it was myself, a few of the counselors here that worked with him, and I literally just followed him around with the camera through SC State, and then the school superintendent here, Floyd Lyles, was like, we’re gonna try to find the football team, since that’s what he wants to do. So we, like, went to that building, and ironically, the football team happened to be in a meeting, and they—we just kind of knocked on the door and they let us in. So he, to see the kid light up and say, this is at arm’s reach. It is attainable. And like to capture all of those moments. And it was just a short video. I mean, I think in it was toward the end of 2024 but like in a short amount of time, I had over 20,000 views, and that that felt good, because he got exposure, and it just showed that these kids are more than their, the first mistake that they made. So that was pretty memorable.
Emma Plutnicki 12:10
That’s a great story, and I’m sure it’s so rewarding to be able to see those stories come to light. Amazing. Yeah. And just like as we’re wrapping up, is there anything else you’d like to share about your career? Any advice for young professionals, young professionals who might want to get into this career?
Akai Shelise Jones 12:29
I would, I would tell them the first thing is, go beyond the actual search, because I think looking for a job like sometimes the descriptions are not really what we think it is, and like for me, seeing public information, having no exposure to what that meant, may have deterred me from applying. So I would say, do a cross search, ask questions, and look at some of the sub points within a posting, and then ask questions about those sub bullets because a lot of times something that you want to do is really embedded in that job description. I think the second thing would be, is still try the job shadowing. It feels like it may be an archaic thought, but some people are willing, whether it be internships, career shadowing and going for a day. I would tell those young folks, go online and be bold, because they’re so brazen and bold now. Use that boldness to like command and build what career you want, because you can do it. And not saying like you can do it, but like you, literally, it’s within arm’s reach to have someone write a position description and really make a job for you that you may not necessarily see on Indeed, on Monster or whatever, and that the third thing would be, use the creativity that they have in their personal life. You know, if you’re, if you’re a social media person, if you’re a Tiktok person, use that to get some structure around what you do, because it will help you professionally. So, I’ll give an example. If you, if you are, if you podcast, I’m just saying, and you think it’s just fun and you’re doing it with your friends, well, really set up the structure of a show. Really, storyboard, really, you know, do a treatment, really do a shot list for it. So, I would urge them to do what they do in their—use what they do in their personal time, and make it as structured and professional as they can, because it will translate to a career that’s awesome like this.
Emma Plutnicki 14:41
Yeah, well, thank you so much for your advice.
Akai Shelise Jones 14:44
You’re welcome.
Emma Plutnicki 14:45
I really appreciate it.
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Fran Coleman
“Anything is possible. Anything is possible. You just have to be creative”
Fran Coleman is an associate professor of voice and choral activity at Francis Marion University. Fran’s teaching spans from voice lessons, directing choirs and any other coral activity. Fran is located in Florence S.C. and currently teaches but is also a performer as well as producer with a regional party band called Emerald Empire band.
Interview
Transcript
0:03 | Emma Plutnicki
Okay, perfect. So, to start off, what do you do for work and where are you currently working from?
0:09 | Fran Coleman
I do a lot of work. Currently, I work at Francis Marion University. I am an associate professor of voice and choral activities there. So, I teach voice lessons. I direct all of their choirs. I arrange any kind of Choral Activities that might be on or off campus. I arrange any kind of vocal recitals, anything like that. I arrange. We also have a couple of other vocal groups. We have a jazz ensemble and a music industry ensemble. I don’t direct those, but I do work with most of the singers that are in those groups, just by default music.
1:03 | Emma Plutnicki
How long have you been working there?
1:05 | Fran Coleman
This is my seventh year. Yeah, this is the end of my seventh year. So I’m also a performer and a producer with a regional party band. So I obviously sing and perform with them, but I also put together events with them. I work with our, with our vendors, with our, with our, obviously, with all of our clients. I work with them. I’m kind of like the third party between them and the vendor and the band also. So I kind of wear multiple hats when it comes to them, because when I am dealing with them before the event, I’m the producer, as far as helping them to plan the event, plan out what the band is going to do, how the band how the band is going to fit into their event schedule. When I get on site, I am kind of the band manager, as far as advocating for the band, making sure the band gets their breaks, making sure that they can, especially like last summer, when it was super duper hot, making sure they, you know, get water, make sure they get their dinner break and all that kind of stuff.
2:16 | Fran Coleman
And then when I’m on stage, I am the performer. I wear lots and lots of hats when I’m with the band as well. And then I’m also a classical singer. That’s kind of a freelance thing. I sing with a lot of different churches in the area for weddings, funerals, Sunday services. I sing with the symphony in the area. I also sing with the Long Bay symphony at Myrtle Beach. I do a lot of regional work just with other events in the Carolinas and Georgia. When it comes to the arts, I always like to say that you have to wear a lot of different hats. You have to be willing to have a kind of piecemeal life together. You have to be willing to, you have to be willing to have lots of different side hustle. And if you’re willing to do that, you’re going to be fine. But it’s like understanding that you have to know where your passion is, if to know why you’re doing it, you know.
3:24 | Emma Plutnicki
Yeah, amazing, yeah. It sounds like you have a lot of things pulling you in different directions. But what is one thing that you like specifically about working as a creative in South Carolina?
3:40 | Fran Coleman
You know, moving down here, I moved from Richmond, Virginia, which is a fairly different size city, you know, then particularly Florence, which is where I’m at, but even Conway, or Charleston, for that matter, I mean, Richmond’s a pretty, pretty decent sized city, which I wasn’t, I really wasn’t ready to realize until I moved, but it was really nice to move to an area that appreciated the arts as much as they do. This area really appreciates the arts and and they’re willing to pay for it.
3:40 | Fran Coleman
You know what I mean? Like, I feel like in Richmond, I was constantly advocating for artists to be paid for what they do, constantly, constantly advocating. When I was in Richmond, the hustle was even more real when I mean I was, I wasn’t a full-time professor up there. I was an adjunct professor, which is what’s called a part time professor. Where I was, I was part time at several different universities around the state. Some were a couple hours away. Some were less than, you know, an hour away.
4:58 | Fran Coleman
But either way, I was trying. Traveling a lot. I was working with several different nonprofit organizations to advocate for the arts. And I was working with Virginia opera, which was a couple hours away. I mean, it was just, it was a lot a lot of driving, and a lot a lot of hustle, and that was and the basis of all of that hustle was advocating for the arts, advocating for the artists to be paid, you know, and to be such a cosmopolitan area, it’s amazing how little they wanted to pay for the arts. So, to move down here and to come to an area where the arts were so appreciated, the very second question after you know, what can you offer? Is, what is your fee? And I was just dumbfounded, because I was like, wow, okay, let me think about it, because I didn’t know. So, so that I really do love is how appreciated the arts are around here.
6:00 | Emma Plutnicki
Yeah, amazing. And have you been able to find a professional community within South Carolina that you kind of meet with, or how would you describe your local professional community?
6:14 | Fran Coleman
Well, you know, through the band, through the band that I work with is called Emerald Empire band. And Emerald Empire band, excuse me, I have a frog in my throat. Emerald Empire band is part of a larger organization called the International Musicians League. And so that International Musicians League is literally International, and it spans across the world. And so I was with them in Virginia as well. Up there, they were called the Bachelor Boy Band. And so when I moved down here, I was able to transition over to Emerald. And so they really helped me to find a large entity of professional musicians that I wanted to be a part of and through them, I was able to branch out and kind of find a little bit more of that, like classical entity that I was looking for. But also in working with the Florence Symphony Orchestra and the Long Bay symphony orchestra, and then also through working with some of the other musicians in Emerald, I was able to meet some of the some of the other crossover musicians like myself that do classical as well as contemporary music, that work in the Charleston area and as well as in the Columbia area. I also sing with a nonprofit in Columbia called Palmetto Opera.
7:40| Fran Coleman
And so I was able to meet some of the other classical players in the Columbia area. So through all of those entities, I feel like I’ve been able to really like I’ve been able to really dig into the contemporary pool of players. I’ve been able to scratch the surface when it comes to the classical players. I know there are so many more that I would love to get in touch with and start collaborating with. There’s a fantastic woman in the Florence area who is doing some work with the Met, the Florence Masterworks Choir. She’s doing some work rebuilding their website and helping to build their database, and she has created an organization called the Ladies Who Lunch, and that is a group of ladies, all who work within the arts community in Florence, whether it be through visual arts or performing arts.
8:40 | Fran Coleman
And we all try and get together at least once a month, just to kind of talk through things that are happening, things that are, you know, things that need to happen, things we like to see happen. And so that’s a great, great way to try and keep things moving. And so that’s been happening, and so that’s really good. Things like that are what need to continue to happen, right? Just having conversations, and just knowing who to have conversations with, right? Yeah, particularly within the female community, you know, because even in 2025 we’re still so subdued, yeah, so yeah, yeah,
9:27 | Emma Plutnicki
No, it sounds like a great community, and hopefully it continues to grow. And with all the hats that you wear, you know, how do you define professional or personal success in such creative fields?
9:44 | Fran Coleman
Oh, I used to put dollar signs on it. I don’t anymore. I really define success in how full my heart is. You know, if I’m waking myself up and putting myself to bed? Every day with music, then that’s how I define my success.
10:03 | Emma Plutnicki
That’s great. It really is great. So have you had a kind of major project in your life, or, I don’t know, like a defining moment in your creative journey that’s made a significant impact on you, or something that you have produced or sang, or project that you’ve worked on that has really showcased your creativity?
10:36 | Fran Coleman
So many things. I try and keep the creative fires burning as much as I can. This particular semester, I’ve got, like, next week, we have an event happening at a little restaurant in Florence called Victor’s. And so, through the Palmetto opera, I was introduced to a kind of dinner, a dinner theater type event called up, called, what they call it, Villa Tronco. And Villa Tronco is just a restaurant in Columbia, and excuse me, it’s like a it’s like a dinner theater where two opera singers get up and they just sing a few songs, and then they take a little break, and then they sing another few songs, they take a little break, and then they get up and they sing a few more, and then they take a little break all and all of it is paired with meals and then within those pairings are like little mini sets. And those little mini sets include some backstory behind the areas. And there’s always a duet within each of those mini sets, and there’s an explanation behind it.
12:00 | Fran Coleman
Anybody is invited to these dinner theaters like you don’t have to be a world-renowned opera buff to understand. I kind of borrowed their idea, and I took it to Victor’s, which is a restaurant in Florence, and I said, I’ve got this great business model, and I would love to bring it to Victor’s. Victor’s is like one of the classier restaurants in Florence, and they have a great back room, like, a kind of conference room area where they could kind of create a nice little dinner concept and sell reservations. And so that was a great success. We did that a couple times, so it was really successful. And we’ve got another one coming up in February, and so far, it’s been really successful. We had one scheduled for October, and it was the day before Halloween, and it didn’t sell like we wanted, so we had to end up postponing that one.
12:55 | Fran Coleman
That was, unfortunately, not as great, but the one we had coming up in February was really successful, so that was great. I did an event on campus last year with where it was called singing the legacy of black female composers, and I paired that with some of my current students along with some of my alumni students, and we did a whole concert where we sang nothing but music of black female composers, and we talked about the works of these women and all of the great all of the great information, all of the great things they did. We talked about all sorts of amazing things they brought to us as composers, as women, and that was really cool. Back home, I worked with a couple of nonprofits where we built a Mozart Festival every year in different parts of the city.
13:55 | Fran Coleman
That was amazing. I mean, every year it was, and it was almost all completely female run. You know, that was amazing. Every year, I am the only female that helps to put together this event called FSO Rocks at the end Florence, where it’s the Florence Symphony Orchestra, and we do all classic rock music. So that’s really amazing. Anytime I can help build something new and exciting that is even the slightest bit different. I always like to say that, you know, I kind of like Winnie the Pooh. I’m not your average bear. Yeah, you know, yeah. Anytime I anytime I can, anytime help out, like, with something that’s slightly different, I try and get involved. So great.
14:47 | Emma Plutnicki
And when you decided to go into a creative profession, did you have any fears about that? Like, what was your biggest fear?
14:55 | Fran Coleman
I mean, I’m always fearful of the unknown, but ultimately I. Um, I let anybody who says they don’t think I can handle it fuel me, like anytime I’ve ever had a professor to say, I don’t know if this is for you or you might want to try something different. I let them. I let that fuel me to say, oh, really, really, watch me, you know, and I let that kind of feel me. And so that’s what’s gotten me to where I am. Any negative feedback has been what’s got me to where I am? Yeah, it’s not, it’s not pulled me down.
15:37 | Emma Plutnicki
What’s the worst advice that you’ve ever gotten, or the best advice?
15:45 | Fran Coleman
Well, when I first got to undergraduate school, I was so in when I was a senior in high school, my dear and bestest friend from, like, literal infancy, um, she, she and her dad and my dad were like, best friends. They like went to military school together. They were stationed in Germany together. They like, we were born two months apart. Like, we were raised together, you know. And she died in a car accident when we were, like, 17, just boom, two months before graduation, gone. Dead. And it was just, I mean, it just, it shook your world, you know. And so, I didn’t go straight to high school. I mean, I didn’t go straight to college straight after graduation. I just moved out after high school, and just kind of like, got a couple jobs and started singing in bands, and started going to open mic nights and just kind of sewing my musical oats and deciding what I might want to do with my life. I just didn’t know. I just knew that if God could take Kim at 17, he could take me too, you know, and so, so I just knew that I needed to explore what, what the world had to offer me. And so that’s what I did. And so, one band led to another, led to another, led to another, until eventually I started getting into some, some significantly successful bands, and we started doing some touring up and down the coast, and things were doing really well, until eventually that van broke up. I was about 24 at that point, 23 maybe, landed back in Richmond, and I said, okay, now what do I do? And so, I decided I would go back to college.
17:38 | Fran Coleman
And I started, you know, taking some like, gen ed classes at community college. And then by the time I was 24 I decided, okay, I’m going to go back to Virginia Commonwealth University, which is kind of like the USC of Richmond, you know, big urban campus. They’ve got a great music program, and I was going to learn how to really sing, right? And they are a very, very traditional school in 2001 which was at the time when I decided to go back to school. They had removed their jazz voice program, which in 1994 when I originally auditioned for the school, they had they didn’t tell me, they dropped it, right?
18:24 | Fran Coleman
So, like, when I re-auditioned with the exact same two songs that I auditioned in 1994 for, they didn’t tell me, they dropped it. So when I got in again, I was like, Okay, well, I’m going to be a jazz voice major. And I was, I was alerted very, very, very staunchly in the middle of theory class, that I was not a theory, that I was not a jazz voice major, but I was classical voice major. And so, so that was a little daunting and so that was eye opening to know that I was going to spend the next four years singing classical music when I’d never sung a note of classical music before. And so I spent the next at least two years fighting that tooth and nail and so many, many of my teachers in undergraduate school were not pleasant to me.
19:19 | Fran Coleman
They basically compartmentalized me and said, oh well, she sings rock music, so she must be an alto or a mezzo. No, I’m really not. I’m very much a high soprano. But they didn’t give me the benefit of trying to listen to me or understand me at all because they didn’t want to. So that was very frustrating those first two years, so and so, and that’s really the negativity that fueled me, but at the same time, I needed to find an outlet, because I knew I couldn’t just in classical music. So that’s when I started. Kind of moonlighting, so to speak, with the jazz department at school. And instead of just singing with the madrigalists, which was like the very traditionalist a cappella group, I sang with the small jazz ensemble, and then I was invited to sing with the large jazz ensemble, which was like their big band, you know.
20:19 | Fran Coleman
And I really fell in love with jazz music. And then I started, you know, studying like Jazz, Jazz vocal pedagogy, and I was able to do an independent study with them, and, and I was able to study with one of the best jazz drummers that this country’s ever seen, you know, and, and I was able to make some fabulous connections that I still have to this day, and that have stuck with me for 20 years, you know, and it’s just, it’s, it’s been phenomenal. And they, they really are, who got me through undergraduate school. Now, mind you, I fell in love with classical music in the meantime, and I ended up getting a doctorate in opera. And I love classical music.
20:58 | Fran Coleman
And like I said, I you know, both of the nonprofits that I worked with in Richmond were both classical. One of them was the Classical Revolution, and the other one was a small nonprofit opera company that I helped build from the ground up. And so, I love classical music, and I will sing classical music till the day I die, but I’m never going to not sing other things either, you know what I mean, I can’t, I can’t just sing one thing. That’s not who I am. I’m somebody that has to have my hand in lots of different cookie jars, because that’s just the world we live in, and that’s the person I am, you know? So, um, so that’s, and that’s also the teacher I am as well.
21:39 | Fran Coleman
That’s, that’s who, in my opinion, we need to be as singers, is, is somebody that is diverse in what we sing, in what we represent as performers. Because there’s just, there’s too much talent and there’s too much to say, you know. So, if you want an active job as a performer, you need to be able to say a lot of different things and in a lot of different ways.
22:11 | Emma Plutnicki
Yeah, wow. That’s been an incredible journey for you. Thank you for sharing all that. So nowadays, what does your typical workday look like? What’s expected of you daily,
22:25 | Fran Coleman
On Mondays and Wednesdays…Mondays, I have voice lessons in the morning and then we have studio in the afternoon, meaning, like either recital, like with the whole voice department, or the, excuse me, the whole music department, or just my voice studio in the afternoon, and then I have my women’s choir in the afternoon after that. And then on Tuesdays, I have voice lessons in the morning, and then I have my University Choir in the afternoon. On Wednesdays, I just have voice lessons. On Thursdays, I have voice lessons in the morning, University Choir in the afternoon, and then my men’s choir after that. And then on Fridays, I generally try and keep that free for you know, personal like if I have makeup lessons, or if I have doctor’s appointments, or if I have personal appointments, or, you know, interviews, things, whatever need to happen. And then on the weekends, you know, on Friday, Saturday, Sunday is generally set aside for gigs and things like that too.
23:37 | Emma Plutnicki
Okay, amazing. So how do you create that kind of work life balance when you have a busy schedule, where you’re able to kind of have professional creativity, but then also have some time for personal creativity?
23:50 | Fran Coleman
Last semester, really, last year 2024, was probably the busiest year I’ve had in probably a decade, and it was, it was so busy for me. I mean, it was great. Everything was great. Like all of them, all the work I had was all good work, but it was so much. It was so demanding. And last fall in particular, I was supposed to be teaching four classes. I ended up teaching seven classes because my part time professor resigned, so I had nobody else to teach but me. And instead of telling anybody that I can’t help them, I just say, no, I’ll do it. I’ll just take another class. I’ll take another student. And so, I ended up overloading myself by like, three classes, right?
24:45 | Fran Coleman
And then the fall is always busy with the band, so I ended up in triple overload academically, and then I ended up with over 70 singing engagements on me. Calendar, and between that, between all of the teaching and all of the singing, I ended up by December and then, so with not being able to find a healthy work life balance, I ended up getting sick constantly. I mean, I was sick constantly last semester, from the end of September until the middle of December. I think I got sick at least five times. It was like, every time I got better, I’d get sick again. It was like, it was just this constant roller coaster of like, you know, it was like a sinus infection, and then it was a cold, and then it was an upper respiratory infection.
25:45 | Fran Coleman
Then everything just sits right here, when you’re a singer, you know, it’s just and it was just horrible. And so, I would get better long enough to, you know, regain my voice for the next gig, and then, and then I would get sick again, and then I would sing through illness, and then I would get better enough to sing for the next gig. And then I would, you know, lose my voice. And that, you know what I mean, and that the window of time that I would have to get my voice back was getting wider and wider and wider until eventually I was getting really worried, and so I went to my otolaryngologist, which, if any vocalist is having a challenge with their voice, I would say, don’t just go to your standard ENT down the street, because God bless them. If you have a cleft palate, if you have a deviated septum, if you have chronic sinus infections, if you have you know concern of laryngeal cancer.
26:44 | Fran Coleman
You know any standard ENT issue go right, but anything else that is pertaining to the singing voice, please go to an otolaryngologist that is who is trained to know things about the singing voice, and I went to go see mine. And I had, I had a vocal injury, you know, and so I had to go on strict vocal rest for two and a half weeks. And for the very first time in my entire adult singing life, I couldn’t sing for Christmas. I’ve never been able to sing for Christmas, and it was heartbreaking, you know.
27:23 | Fran Coleman
And so that was really, really sad. And that was, that was, that was the result of not knowing or not being able to find a good work life balance, you know, yeah. And so that’s sad. And so that’s that, that’s, that’s how I had to find that. That’s how I had to know, unfortunately, a better, that’s how I had to find a better work life balance this semester. You know?
27:55 | Emma Plutnicki
So just as we wrap up, are there any, is there anything else you want to add, or any questions you wish I may have asked that I didn’t?
28:21 | Fran Coleman
I can’t think of anything right off the top of my head. Um, you know, like I said before, it’s like, you know, the life of an artist is not one for the faint of heart. You know, I certainly don’t deter anybody from it. If you have a passion for anything, if you have a passion for singing, if you have a passion for painting, if you have a passion for set design or costume design or makeup or arts administration, or, you know, sound work or production or anything, you know, I mean, anything in the arts is going to be challenging. Anything, anything that does not live in a box, is going to be challenging, right? But if it is what makes you happy, then do it right? Because think about how many times you go out into the world, whether it be to the grocery store or to pick up you know, your food order, or your, you know, your dry cleaning, or whatever it’s like.
29:25 | Fran Coleman
And you deal with miserable people who want to be miserable. Nobody wants to be miserable. Be happy and spread happiness. And the only way to do that is to find what brings you joy. You know, so the best way to find, the best way to do that is to is to do what brings you joy, and if that is not ultimately lucrative upfront, then you have to find ways to bring the funding. You know what I mean. Anything is possible. Anything is possible. You just have to be creative.
29:49 | Emma Plutnicki
Yeah, that’s great advice and a great perspective. Amazing. So last thing. Do you have anybody that is in your life that’s a creative working in South Carolina that you would like to nominate or think would be beneficial for us to talk to?
30:23 | Emma Plutnicki
I could also just have you think on it and send you, yeah, if anybody comes to mind, we have a nomination link where you can input somebody.
30:34| Fran Coleman
Yeah, yeah. Let me think on it, and then I can maybe send you, like, a list of a few people.
30:37 | Emma Plutnicki
Yeah, that’d be great, amazing.
30:41 | Fran Coleman
I’m always the type of person that likes to think of a bunch of things since I walk out the door.
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Terry Roberts
“There’s always something new to learn, if you really believe in yourself then something will happen.”
Terry Roberts is a conductor, professor, and lifelong musician in Florence, South Carolina. He leads with passion and perseverance across every stage.
Transcript
Emma Plutnicki | 00:01
Okay, so first, what do you do for work and where are you currently working from?
Terry Roberts | 00:06
I’m the coordinator of music at Francis Marion University, and I’m a professor for various different classes and ensembles, and I’m also the music director of the Florence Symphony Orchestra. So, this is all in Florence, of course. I’ve been here, I’ve been a conductor since 2003 and with the University for about 16 years. I believe.
Emma Plutnicki | 00:31
Amazing. So, what is one thing that you love about working in South Carolina, specifically?
Terry Roberts | 00:37
Well, normally, you can play golf year-round, but not now. Well, I was raised in the South mostly. I’m from Oklahoma originally, but, yeah, most of my life I’ve lived in the South. It’s a lot nicer, calmer. I had friends, one friend of mine, who’s a soloist, said “The only reason to go to New York is to get the check and leave.” So yeah, I was in Europe for a long time. When I moved back, people asked why I didn’t move to New York. I said, “Well, I can get to New York real easy. I don’t need to live there.” So yeah, and I get up there to do some gigs. But, yeah, one week’s about all I can stand in there.
Emma Plutnicki | 01:25
Fair. So, what does South Carolina bring to your work? Does it have any unique influence on your work compared to working anywhere else, working in New York?
Terry Roberts | 01:37
Well, like I said, I’ve had, I’ve had the good fortune to live in several different places. So, I’m more like trying to bring what I’ve learned culturally in different countries, different places in the United States, to impart that information, if you will, to my students and also to the public, and culturally speaking simply. South Carolina obviously has a lot of history. One of my professors was a famous composer from Latta, just up the street here, Carlisle Floyd, and I studied with him when I was in Florida State University, and I played some of his works and things like that.
Emma Plutnicki | 02:28
And how would you describe kind of the working community in South Carolina? How is your local professional community?
Terry Roberts | 02:38
Oh, well, Florence especially is sort of booming. To be quite honest, when I moved here, I wasn’t going to stay, but things change you know. That’s fate, as they say, and this particular community has really just blossomed. I mean, we have two major hospitals, several major companies have moved here, and culturally, it’s just a gold mine. There’s a lot of culture going on here, and there’s a lot of talent within the community. So, it’s great. I mean, it’s very refreshing, and everyone loves to partake in the arts here, which is great. And I try to be diverse as possible, which is a hard thing to do anyway, but to include as many people as I can in the arts. So, I mean, when I had hair, long hair, I played in rock bands and all that stuff. So, you know, I’ve sort of done everything, if you will, so just a classical player.
Emma Plutnicki | 03:46
Amazing yeah, so within your working in a creative field, how do you define personal success and professional success?
Terry Roberts | 03:57
Oh, wow. Well, for me, personal success is being able to learn more every day. You never stop learning in music. There’s always something new to learn and to hopefully to grow a bit every day. Professionally, I’ve been blessed to have done a lot of different things. I’ve played in all the major, I played French horn, solo horn in Europe for 16 years, and I played in all the major opera houses, concert halls in Europe and the United States. And that was, I was very fortunate. I was able to learn two more languages, you know. So, all those things are because of music. I got to see a lot of the world. So, it, I’ve been very fortunate. And it wasn’t easy at first, I have to admit, you know, but I think everyone who’s successful has to persevere.
Emma Plutnicki | 05:08
Yeah, amazing. So, you said it was difficult. Were there any fears that you had when you first decided to step into a profession in the arts?
Terry Roberts | 05:18
Well, my father has a PhD in music education. He was a chairman of music for years at universities, and so I was sort of raised in that environment. And I thought about actually becoming a pilot, that really intrigued me. But then I would have to stop playing, and I really wanted to play. And I mean, I’ve been playing some instruments since I was six years old, so, you know, and playing music is almost mathematical too, so that sort of tied in. I thought about piloting or architecture and things that, and my father encouraged me to do that because he didn’t want me to be a poor musician. But, but anyway, it worked out. So, it was hard at first. I mean, when I got to Germany, I was going to study for one year, and I had like, $250 in my pocket and a horn and two suitcases, and I didn’t know what was going to happen. And it just sort of blossomed from there. So, I was very fortunate. Right place at the right time, so to speak.
Emma Plutnicki | 06:24
Yeah, it’s great how it works out that way. Were there any people in your life giving you advice? Do you remember like the best advice or the worst advice that you ever received?
Terry Roberts | 06:39
Well, I mean, gosh, there’s so many different people. My teacher, he was very famous horn player, Erich Penzel in Germany. He gave me a bunch of tips about how to handle conductors and now I’m a conductor, so it’s funny. And I would talk to a lot of different conductors, I worked under some very big names, and I would ask them how they went into the field. And all of them, all of them, talk about perseverance, and talk about, when you’re starting out, how hard it is, and it is. You just have to be at the right place at the right time. You know, there’s, there’s plenty of people out there that can do my job, but I just happen to get lucky, you know? I tell my students, “There’s always someone waiting to take your place.” You have to think that way. You have to, you have to practice. You have to always continue to get better. You can’t just sit and do nothing. And that, I believe that still to this day. I mean, the orchestra could say one day, “oh, come on and get someone else,” you know, with different ideas, you know.
Emma Plutnicki | 07:46
Makes sense. And within your career, has there been one particular project that has made a significant impact on your life or a project that you think really showcased your creativity and kind of was the pinnacle of your career?
Terry Roberts | 08:15
I don’t think I’ve reached that yet. To be quite honest. I hope I haven’t. I’m very proud of some of the works I’ve commissioned to be premiered with this orchestra, and I’m doing another work next fall, in October, that a former student of mine is writing. So, I’m always very proud when former students are successful. It makes me, you know, it’s like having your own children be successful. You know, which I do have children, they’re somewhat successful to me.
Terry Roberts | 08:58
I mean, it’s always good, when you see someone succeed and you’ve been nurturing them and sort of mentoring or whatever, you know. So, yeah, I mean, I like helping out young people, and I think that’s probably one of my best things around.
Emma Plutnicki | 09:18
I love that. So nowadays, what does a typical workday look like for you? What’s your work process and what’s kind of expected of you on a daily basis?
Terry Roberts | 09:32
Well, one thing about the arts, it’s never the same every day. I mean, obviously at the university you have your schedule. But, like, I’ve just done three days of rehearsals with three different ensembles, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. And today, I gotta regroup. I’ve gotta get ready for a different ensemble. Yeah, so and then I’ll teach a bit. I always have one day, and this is my day actually. I always have one day during the week where I try to regroup, and that’s Thursday this semester. But normally I come into the office, I start answering emails, which there’s plenty of, and stuff like that, and then I’ll start studying whatever music I need to be studying for the next concert I’m doing, or next project I’m doing. And at the same time, I’m doing budgets for the orchestra, budgets for the music program, things like that and people are asking me for money and all that neat stuff, a lot of paperwork. I mean, everyone goes, “Oh, so it must be so great be a musician.” I say, “Well, you know, when you spend 75% of your time doing the other stuff, so you can be a musician, yeah, it’s really great when you make music.”
Emma Plutnicki | 10:53
So how are you able to keep that work life balance where you’re able to work on your professional responsibilities, but then also have time for personal creativity?
Terry Roberts | 11:07
It’s, actually not that hard. It’s all about time management. And, you know, teaching my students about that, that’s the one thing that you know, ever since I was, gosh, since I don’t know “it,” or whatever. The first thing I do every day is do some music. You know, whether it’s practice, listen, study or something, that’s the first thing you want to do every day. That sort of like, gets you going, then you can take care of all this, other things like that. So, I don’t think it’s hard to balance it out. I like to play golf, I like to watch sports, crazy about the football stuff right now and, you know, I try to have other interests. And everyone you know, sort of, you know -I hate saying this. Everyone thinks that I’m just focused on music. I said, “You know, I have a normal life,” you know, and that’s what you have to have, is a normal life.
Terry Roberts | 12:10
So, you have to shut it down sometimes. And I get, you know, nervous or excited, whatever. But you have to learn how to turn it off, too. And that’s, that’s difficult, and some days I’ll get pretty perturbed, you know? But you always have to look for a solution. You can’t stay perturbed. You have to figure out what you can do. After every rehearsal, I like to sit down for a second and just think about what I can do to make something better. You know, after when I teach something, did I teach it correctly? Or can I make it better? Make it more understood, if you will. So, it’s, it’s a, you know, different lifestyle. It’s not going into the office, clocking in, do your work, there, go have lunch. It’s not that. You’re sort of married to music, but you have to, just like with your spouse, you have to spend a little time away from it.
Emma Plutnicki | 13:20
That’s a great perspective to have.
Terry Roberts | 13:23
I once told someone, I’ve known my horn longer than I’ve known my wife.
Emma Plutnicki | 13:27
Yeah, there you go. True. Perfect. So just as we wrap up, are there any other questions you wish I would have asked, or anything else you’d like to add about you, know, your career and your life.
Terry Roberts | 13:43
I think the most important thing for anyone in the arts doesn’t matter, music, art, theater, whatever, that you cannot become discouraged. And that’s easy to say, very easy to say, because I have been discouraged many times. I’ve done auditions all over the world, and, you know, been disappointed, gotten almost there, and you feel really disappointed afterwards, but you have to persevere. You can’t just stop, you know. If you really love what you’re doing, it doesn’t matter. And I used to say, “the money will come later.” Yeah, you have to pay bills. Yeah, you have to know how to do a budget and all that stuff. But, if you persevere, if you really believe in yourself, then something will happen. It might not be exactly the way you thought. I mean, I didn’t think I was going to be a professor. After growing up that way I swore, I’d never do that. Here I am, you know. So you just never know the path, you have to be flexible and persevere.
Emma Plutnicki | 15:22
Well perfect. Do you have any other creatives in your life that you think would be good for us to interview? Can you think of anybody?
Terry Roberts | 15:40
My wife, she was a prima ballerina in Pacific Northwest Ballet in France and we met in Monte Carlo. We were both working there, and she does the ballet here. She’s artistic director of the South Carolina Dance Theater.
Emma Plutnicki | 15:58
Okay, amazing. If we could get her contact information, or I can send you the link to nominate an individual.
Terry Roberts | 16:05
I’ll just email you her email address and whatever.
Emma Plutnicki | 16:08
Okay, amazing. That’d be great.
Terry Roberts | 16:11
She’s seen more of the world than me. She has literally been around the world. But she’s from Wilmington, North Carolina, of all things. And she went to North County School of the Arts and studied. Well, she’d been dancing since, professionally, she started at 17. Dancers have a short lifespan, you know. Then she went into teaching, so I never saw her dance. I met her when she was finished dancing, so.
Emma Plutnicki | 16:41
She’s got to still be dancing a little bit these days, right?
Terry Roberts | 16:44
Well, she demonstrates. And sometimes she says, “I shouldn’t have demonstrated that.”
Emma Plutnicki | 16:50
Yeah.
Terry Roberts | 16:53
So, she choreographs and runs the ballet here.
Emma Plutnicki | 16:57
Okay, amazing. That would be great if you could send that over.
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Desiree Williams
“I define success by being able to wake up and actually see my work impacting the lives of others.”
Desiree Williams is a licensed esthetician and educator. Desiree is turning creative passion into community impact, one lash, lesson, and life at a time.
About
For Desiree Williams, being a licensed esthetician isn’t just a job; it’s something she’s super passionate about, driven by creativity, mentorship, and resilience. Based in Columbia, South Carolina, she’s not only a certified esthetics instructor but also the founder of a growing beauty business specializing in master lash extensions. But her influence goes way beyond what happens in the salon.
Every night at 9 PM, Desiree hosts free lash classes on TikTok, giving guidance and support to aspiring beauty pros all over the country. With over 1,500 students under her belt, she sees success not in dollars, but in real transformations: “I’ve learned that my success is in helping people change their lives in a real, true way.”
Her journey hasn’t been a walk in the park. She started her business from home without any funding and faced a lupus diagnosis right when her career was taking off. Through it all, she learned how to create sustainable systems and find a healthy balance. “You don’t realize how much you’re pouring into something until you step back and look at the bigger picture,” she says.
Today, she credits South Carolina’s awesome support for micro-businesses, including the Columbia Business Office’s Next Level program, for helping her keep growing. Surrounded by local esthetics communities and entrepreneurial mixers, she’s built a vibe filled with support and opportunities.
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Philip Mullen
“It’s a very fortunate blessing to find something in life that you like enough that you do it before you’re paid for it.”
Philip Mullen is a Painter and professor emeritus Philip Mullen reflects on decades of artmaking and mentoring and why South Carolina and a bathtub shaped his creative life.
About
Philip Mullen is a well-known painter and a Distinguished Professor Emeritus at the University of South Carolina. For over fifty years, he’s poured his energy into large-scale acrylic painting, mentoring others, and staying true to his artistic vision. His awesome studio in Columbia even got a shoutout in The Artist Magazine. He’s had major shows in New York and participated in the prestigious Whitney Biennial. Throughout his journey in the art world, Mullen has shown both resilience and style.
Mullen opens up about the unique challenges and quirks of keeping an artistic practice going for life. He talks about stuff like making custom racks for his big canvases, learning to fix elevators in Andy Warhol’s old studio, and how he juggles teaching with showcasing his art. “To be an artist, you’ve got to have it in one seat. You’ve got to have a big ego … But myself, like most artists I know, have very fragile egos.”
During his 31 years at USC, Mullen created a hands-on course called The Artist Experience. This class lets students dive into practical learning by visiting studios, firing pottery, and getting up close with Degas sculptures.
Even though he faced some early doubts, especially from his own family, Mullen built a career based on passion rather than prestige. “In a way, to me, the success has to do with putting together a life in which I could spend a lot of time making paintings,” he explains. In this heartfelt conversation, he reflects on the joy of being creative, the need to keep that creativity going over time, and why Columbia, South Carolina, is such a big part of his artistic journey.
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Cole Bullock
“You need to get out there, doing things, while you’re a student.”
Cole Bullock is a Recreation Specialist at Perry Correctional Institution in Greenville, SC. He designs and runs creative and athletic programs for inmates.
Interview
Transcript
Cole Bullock
I’m Cole Bullock. I am a recreational specialist at Perry Correctional Institution in Greenville, South Carolina.
Haley Hansen
How long have you been working there?
Cole Bullock
This is my fourth year in June.
Haley Hansen
Can you walk me through your typical workday?
Cole Bullock
Yes. So a typical workday for me would be to open up a multipurpose facility that Perry has that has a couple classrooms, but more importantly, a gymnasium. And so first things first, I walk in, I prep everything, look for any sort of contraband items that might have been left over, get all the lights on, make sure all of my rec workers who I hire on certain inmates that I’m allowed that I allowed to kind of conduct different cleanings and programs and stuff, I get their stuff ready, I prepare their the workouts of the day, which would be a pre designed class of my own creation, and they’ll post them on certain boards.
Cole Bullock
And usually when the guys start coming in, we’ll start the bell being kind of a calendar for the week, when I’m looking for, you know, as far as the programming aspects of things, and we kind of just let the show roll.
Cole Bullock
Right now currently, we’re in our Pickleball League. So, inmates have had a chance from their dorms to sign up and create a team of doubles or singles. And so, we are just now building out the tournaments for them.
Cole Bullock
And as well as our Hobby-Craft program, as well, which is a program that allows for men to purchase certain items such as arts and crafts, different wood. Ah, surprisingly, different types of like saw blades, which you wouldn’t think they’d be able to have, but to do woodworking as well as leather working as well. So, different kind of tears that they’re able to build up to. And I will illustrate that with their programming and their needs and making sure that they’re, you know, in compliance with everything for what the state likes to see them. Have.
Haley Hansen
You said that your background was in sports ministry, right?
Cole Bullock
Yeah, so I double majored and Bible Theology and then Sports and Fitness Leadership. And so coming in, I guess, that degree specifically, if you transfer it to more of a secular university, that’s kind of like a sports ethics degree. As far as how the credits match up.
Haley Hansen
Ok. Would you say that has helped you a lot at this position?
Cole Bullock
Yeah, I mean, the the biggest thing for I think a degree is that once you have it on paper, you essentially have to learn how to put it into practice.
Cole Bullock
So I think, although my degree has certainly given me the framework to, you know, understand the need for why to do what I do, but the big process, I think of learning is just doing the reps on site. So there’s, there’s not really much preparation as far as what it’s like to train yourself for prison except for go to prison. Right. So but for the most part, yeah, I think the degree my degree itself has kind of inspired me on the idea that, hey, this is a very valuable career to jump into, because there is a need in order for recreation, you know, the hot topic, word is always rehabilitation, rehabilitate these guys, and you know, so we can bring them back out society and make them productive members.
Haley Hansen
What do you say was the biggest adjustment or challenge that you faced, when you started at Perry?
Cole Bullock
The biggest thing, the biggest challenge for us is just getting everyone on board with the idea that recreation is something that you would want in an institution. Depending on who you’re speaking with, it just, it’s a challenge to get everyone to kind of connect the idea that rehabilitation and physical fitness are actually a good coupling. You could have some staff members who could perceive the idea that guys are getting physically fit as a threatening thing, meaning they’re, you know, enhancing their physical capabilities and given them maybe that advantage when it comes to anything like physical altercations.
Cole Bullock
So, that was my first I think major hurdle was just establish, “Hey, if you program correctly in this institution, good programs create good security. Creating competent individuals that exert their energy in a healthy way, where they are establishing themselves in some some discipline and also giving them something that they enjoy. Which is a privilege that they really don’t want to get taken away from them. So, they kind of adjust their their mindset to be able to keep what they like.”
Haley Hansen
You mentioned, you are in charge of getting materials for the hobby crafting class. I imagine there’s some overlap in the conversations you mentioned with that, too. Like talking about how getting physically fit can be perceived as a threat you mentioned, like the saw blades and stuff?
Cole Bullock
Yeah, yeah. So oftentimes, we’ll get new staff members and they’ll do their orientation, and they’ll they’ll kind of walk into our hobby craft room. And you know, you’ll see their eyes get this big because they’re like, “They’re they’re allowed to do this? I don’t I don’t understand.”
Cole Bullock
And as long as like I said, as long as it’s programmed correctly, the Hobby-Craft, I’ve seen guys create things where I’m like, “There is no way you could have possibly made this, you know, behind bars, this is incredible. This looks machinery.” And you know, if you speak with them long enough, it’s like, “Listen, you know, I had nothing to do but learn this craft, and so day in and day out I had plenty of time to fail and improve upon my ability, and eventually you get pretty good at it.”
Cole Bullock
And so, some of these guys make amazing things. Some artists here draw like you with a picture off, you know, with a realism. I mean, it’s quite shocking the talent that happens when you you know, give a man enough time and I would say initiative to do something rather than nothing.
Haley Hansen
Do you think the hobby crafting creativity side of it is about as important as the physical fitness? Or do you think one is more helpful?
Cole Bullock
Yeah, these are, these are two sides of the same coin, the objective for us is probably the worst thing that you could do to someone who’s incarcerated is put them behind door, lock it away. And then in 40 years, unlock it, and then let them out and see if they’re any better for society, right? Since you you’ve only compounded the problem.
Cole Bullock
So the idea is we just want to keep them busy, wanting them to maybe perceive themselves in a different manner. So if you’ve ever coming in, and maybe life has handed you a deck of cards that’s not so favorable. And then when you’re back in prison, you realize “Hey, I am a little bit more talented than I thought. I got these crafts that I’ve learned, I can actually use this to make money on the street.” or “This is something that actually I prefer doing instead of, you know, hustling.” These are the moments that we’re trying to create with the inmates and especially with with working out is, you know, especially for those who are suffering with addiction, if they’re able to kind of place their energy and their mind and their efforts towards something that can create that dopamine effect within the mind. And it’s also healthy for them, you know, we would prefer them, you know, transferring their desire for the drug and replacing that with physical fitness.
Haley Hansen
Did you—would you say that you had something is an element when you were working there where you realized, like, it was a job that fit you?
Cole Bullock
It’s one of my favorite questions. Because just like many people, I’m coming into this institution with the idea, yeah, I’m gonna meet some broken guys, right? I’m kind of used to that being from a ministry background, and I’m completely okay with that. But, I had no idea what to expect. I mean, you know, I’m walking into a prison with Hollywood movies, given me the context for what I’m about to, you know, encounter, you know, so I don’t know them, and they’re gonna get stabbed, am I gonna get cussed out, am I gonna get, you know, there’s no telling. And I get my hined here. And I see an ecosystem that yeah, it’s complex. And it’s complicated and can be dangerous at some times. But more importantly, I see is just a desire for men to, to do something. To redeem themselves. To give themselves, essentially, another chance at life. And if you don’t think there’s nervousness behind the bars for freedom there is, because they understand and listen, if I’m gonna waste 20 to 40 years sitting here, you know, walk in a circle, I’m gonna walk out into a world that I don’t understand and going to be set up for failure. And so, a lot of us get nervous about that. And they want to be active, they want to, you know, try to see where, where their talents lie, where, you know, what, what society is, how it’s changing on the outside, and how can they be doing things in here to adapt to that reality, I simply want to provide that ability for them to change and adapt and to be successful. So, when they get back to their families are not burdensome to the community or for themselves. So, I grew great compassion, when I learned that the plight of someone that’s incarcerated, which is a far cry from when I came into, because like many people, I looked at those who were incarcerated and went, “Well, they did the crime. So, whatever happens behind bars happens, I don’t really care”. I can’t help but to care now, just because of the fact that I’ve seen it, I’ve seen the humanity in them. And I just want to support that. Someone’s looking to do better and get a redemption story in their life. I want to give them every tool that they can possibly have to make that dream come true.
Haley Hansen
Working with inmates, it’s a, it’s not a very visible profession. So, if someone is interested in doing that, are there any programs or organizations you’d recommend them check out?
Cole Bullock
Yeah. There’s a lot of groups there’s groups all the time that go into prisons. I think the main thing is if you if you want to know whether or not prisons a good fit for you, as far as a career, if you wanted to work programs in prisons, you just got to get your feet wet. A lot of ministries will come in here and just do support groups, sometimes colleges depending on you know, whatever program is happening will actually will come in here. I know we have a sociology class that we have students from the University I’m not sure which one comes in here and does class with the guys.
Cole Bullock
So ultimately, really, what I would suggest for people is if you’re if you’re looking and you want to be interested. Volunteer, in some capacity, contact that institutions chaplain and ask, “Hey, are there any groups that come in that would essentially support inmates or give me a chance to just interact with the guys” , and I’m sure he’ll connection to the correct third party when you’re in that environment. Just placing guys who have been on lockup back in the regular population that doesn’t tend to go well, you know, you kind of have to slowly reintroduce them back into society, a social capacity, because if you’re alone by yourself for years and years and years, you lose some skills, right? And you kind of get to slowly work yourself back into being able to handle other people and different, you know, situations.
Haley Hansen
Alright. Do you have any advice for current students who might be interested in this sort of thing you’re doing?
Cole Bullock
Yeah, well, I’d say just for any any field is that if you’re going to go through four years of university, and think that when you leave with a piece of paper, that that’s going to be kind of your ticket to get this dream job, you’re in for, unfortunately, a shock.
Cole Bullock
I had one of my mentors had established this idea that you’re going to go on your graduation day, you’re going to look to your left, then you go look to your right, and you’re going to notice hundreds of students all with this, essentially the same piece of paper, what’s going to distinguish you amongst the masses of people that graduated that year. And the idea is, is that you need to get out there doing things while you’re a student to increase your marketability. So, shaking hands. I think I’ve opened more doors, in my path in my career by a handshake than anything that a degree has ever offered me. So, they really want to be able to be networking and finding the right people to speak with, especially during school. That’s, you know, someone that’s able to give you some hours, you know, that’s similar to your field. I think that’s just irreplaceable, within your time at school.
Haley Hansen
And before we end today, is there anything else you think it’s important to say, for this, project?
Cole Bullock
Yeah, I think that speaking from my heart, corrections is a industry that needs support. It needs more of the public’s support to help us accomplish, I think, a goal that everyone should agree on. And that’s this idea that if we’re going to release these guys, we got to make sure that we’re being responsible with what we’re doing with them while we have them with the State. So, that’s a, that’s a group effort.
Cole Bullock
That’s, that’s a community effort. And that has to be a willingness for people that although you may have a certain opinion about those who are incarcerated, completely find, but that certain person might live in a neighborhood near you. So, it’s an investment to care about the guys that are behind bars. It’s an investment to have an interest in their improvement and their well being.
Haley Hansen
Alright. Thank you.
Cole Bullock
All right. Thank you
